Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: You know, guys know there's only two more lessons in this systematic theology.
It's been going off and on for a couple of years now, but just two more, including today. So we're going to, Lord willing, be done by August.
But I have a question.
Has anyone ever been lost?
Like, really lost?
Okay, you guys have been lost in various ways. You know where we lost, like, hiking, you know, A lot of you guys don't drive. I would say driving, but. Anyone been lost driving?
No.
You have? Yeah.
Where have you guys been lost?
Yeah, Big park.
Big park, no shoes.
The gathering place here.
Sorry, I shouldn't mind. Levi.
11 years old, one time. So my dad used, like, a fun thing, like, around neighborhoods and stuff. And he would be like, oh, yeah, you're coming with me on the bicycle. Yeah, so, yeah, go. And I would, like, follow along and we would go to, like, random neighbors.
[00:01:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Yeah. It was on Father's Day, Sunday morning, we were doing this, and he was. He, like, told me there was, like
[00:01:28] Speaker A: two cul de sacs. Okay.
[00:01:29] Speaker B: So it was like, almost like going like a snake.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: He's like, okay, you go around those? Well, I just go straight because, like, the bike goes faster than me, obviously. Like, yeah, sure, we did that. He was just gone. It was some random neighborhood and I was like, oh, gosh. And so. So I just rode myself back home.
[00:01:44] Speaker A: But, like, I didn't know the way.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: I just, like, went random ways. Okay, so you were. You just found your way back.
Okay, that was kind of scary. That is impressive. Okay, Connor, what did you do when you were lost?
[00:01:55] Speaker A: Oh, I was stuck, like, on a. Like. Like a flower bed.
[00:01:59] Speaker B: You just waited?
[00:02:00] Speaker A: Yeah, no, like, I was trying to, like, get off, but, like, I jumped off and then I had to get back on the flower bed because, like, theology.
[00:02:06] Speaker B: Yeah, but. But what did you do to get unlosted?
I screamed. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Asher.
[00:02:15] Speaker A: Okay, so, like, back in the day, I think I was like, seven. I'm pretty sure this happened to a lot of people, but we were at, like, Walmart or something.
[00:02:23] Speaker B: Got lost in the grocery store.
[00:02:25] Speaker A: Like. Like, they went somewhere. We were with my family.
[00:02:28] Speaker B: Well, you don't need. It doesn't need to be a long story. We don't have a lot. Okay, you got lost in the grocery store?
[00:02:35] Speaker A: I couldn't find them, and I was terrified.
And I eventually found.
[00:02:39] Speaker B: Okay, you just found them? You wandered around?
[00:02:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I just wandered around.
[00:02:42] Speaker B: Okay.
Nathan, what about you? So where did you get lost?
[00:02:46] Speaker A: Two years ago. So I was probably like 12 or 13.
And I was just like.
This was me and my friend, and we go to, like, all these, like, skate parks, and we went to this abandoned skate park, and it's like, sketchy neighbor things.
And, like, we literally got lost. And we heard, like, people screaming. Like, we just got lost. And, like, I had, like, an Apple watch or my friend did, actually. And so that completely stopped working. My mom is, like, like, frantic, and we were just like, biking around the neighborhood trying to find where we were. And so we were probably like 30 minutes away from my house, so I had no idea.
[00:03:28] Speaker B: And how'd you get unlost?
[00:03:30] Speaker A: We just rode around until we saw my mom's car.
[00:03:33] Speaker B: Okay, great.
Well, you know, I have been lost before. Sorry, we don't have time. Lincoln. I've been lost before. I was driving, though. I think I was 16.
I was a new driver, and I just maybe made a wrong. I wasn't ever using any directions. I just knew how to get to a lot of places from paying attention while my parents drove. I made an error somewhere and I didn't know how to correct it. There's no way back onto this highway at that particular place. And so I was lost.
And what I did was I used a gps. It sounded like you maybe were trying to do something like that. I wouldn't necessarily recommend if you're lost just trying to find your way, you could, especially if you're not too far from your house.
But we're so fortunate to have something available to us, at least oftentimes that can get us where we need to go.
Now, why is having some sort of mapping system helpful? Why do we listen to it?
Well, because it knows where everything is. It's authoritative, It's a helpful and true guide. It's like a map. It's a compass, it's a gps.
Now, if you get lost and you just kind of wander aimlessly, you could be in danger, especially in the woods, of being more and more lost.
You would get really lost.
So today, our second to last lesson, we have even more so than last week. I think a difficult topic to swallow and understand, difficult for us to internalize and be okay with at times.
And so I want us to take the same sort of approach.
Not wandering aimlessly, thinking, how do I feel about this? Or what do I think about this? But we want to find whatever our mapping system, our gps, our compass is, which hopefully you will see that what I'm teaching is coming from the Bible, which we can call the perfect gps.
It gives us perfect direction.
We know that it's true. We know when we look at this map what it's telling us is right and the ways in which it tells us to believe are the correct ways. And so that's what I want us to kind of lean on, especially when something is difficult, when maybe some of our natural instincts are to kind of be repulsed in some ways.
Because if there's going to be an error somewhere, it's far more likely that the error is within you and not within this book, as this book has no errors. Now, before we talk about eternal punishment, let's review what is theology?
[00:06:25] Speaker A: It's the study of God and how to be more like him.
[00:06:28] Speaker B: That's right. So we study God, but we don't stop there. We seek to let it transform our lives.
[00:06:33] Speaker A: And.
[00:06:33] Speaker B: And what kind of big doctrine are we in now? It's the last one. Good hint.
Do you know it?
[00:06:41] Speaker A: Eschatology.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:06:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: Eschatology. The doctrine of last things in longer but simpler words.
That's right. That's who we are. And then what lessons have we covered in that doctrine?
Okay. Final judgment. Yeah, final judgments.
Asher, I'm pointing at you.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: Resurrection.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: The resurrection. Okay. Offside penalties in soccer. We did talk about offside penalties in soccer. That was not a lesson.
It kind of was a lesson within a lesson. I think it was pretty helpful. Yes.
The millennium. That's right. I can't even remember which one that was for the penalty.
Was it the judgment? The final judgment? Yeah. Okay, so I think there's still one more.
Do you know it?
The return of Christ. I think there's two more. Then death and the intermediate. Say that was the first one. So you die. What happens then? Well, then eventually Christ will return.
There will be a millennium. We talked about different debates with that. There will be a resurrection, or some would say two resurrections.
Christians would say both answers and then a final judgment.
And based on that final judgment, we kind of have these last two lessons. So we have eternal punishment this week, and then in two weeks after camp, when I'm back, we'll talk about the new heaven and the new earth heaven, eternal life.
But this week we're talking about eternal punishment. So here's the summary definition of it.
Eternal punishment is one of two results of Christ's Father, final judgment of people, the other being eternal life.
This sentence against the unrighteous consists of conscious retribution or punishment in hell forever.
So the first point, the first thing we want to affirm is true. Eternal punishment is eternal conscious torment. This is kind of the theological phrase People use eternal conscious torment.
To start, let's go to Daniel 2 or 12. I mean, so if you can find Daniel, it's right after Ezekiel. Ezekiel's a much bigger book. So if you can find that, go right after it to Daniel 12:2.
Daniel 12:2 says, and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
So many of those who fall asleep in the dust of the earth or die shall awake some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Now, Daniel, admittedly is a difficult book to interpret, certainly has some maybe less literal aspects to it, but Jesus actually picks up on this same language and I think brings even more clarity to the subject.
You can just write this one down, Matthew 25:46. We read it several times last week.
Jesus says, and these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
So we see kind of these two options. We see death, punishment, life, reward.
In both passages, life and punishment are marked by similar adjectives.
What are they? What are the adjectives?
Are you guessing?
What are the adjectives that are marking death and life or punishment and life.
Eternal? Yeah. Right. So Daniel is using the language of everlasting in the esv.
Jesus in Matthew is using the word eternal.
These words have the same meaning, eternal, everlasting.
So these are not pit stops, they are destinies.
Eternal punishment is not a timeout, it is forever.
Both of these Old Testament, New Testament, Daniel and then Jesus clarifying, tell us that these are eternal destinies.
So application number one, when we consider this, take your eternity seriously, Take your eternity seriously.
And the second part really could be a second application. Take the eternities of others seriously, take your eternity seriously, take that of others seriously.
And I want you to think about these questions. Don't just let me talk to the air. Think about how you might answer these questions, maybe even write it down.
What would it look like for you to live with an eternal perspective, a perspective that understands you will exist forever?
In other words, how would your life look different if you made every decision, big or small, based on the knowledge that you will exist forever somewhere?
It's a big question, something people, all people, should consider.
And then maybe for that second application, think, how would your life look different if you considered that every person you know or don't know will also exist somewhere forever?
While simple, I think these can be life changing questions, especially if you've never taken the time to actually think about it.
I Just want to warn you against apathy of thinking of these difficult realities because you could want to skip them. You think about this question and immediately you might think, you know, I'm not living as if myself or everyone else are going to exist for eternity. And so it's naturally going to challenge how you live.
But I encourage you to not run away from, from those thoughts.
Matthew 8:12 says, While the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness, in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
So this is another way that Jesus is describing eternal punishment or hell.
He says, some of the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So how does Jesus describe hell?
What's the words he uses?
Yeah, yeah, weeping and gnashing of teeth. It was Matthew 8:12. I know, I didn't give you time to flip there.
He also describes it as outer darkness.
Now, what do you think he means when he says there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?
You guys know what that means?
We know what weeping means probably, but,
[00:14:08] Speaker A: yeah,
[00:14:11] Speaker B: it could maybe indicate anger. I think he's getting at a different sense.
Anyone?
Yeah, deep suffering. Yeah, deep suffering. It's kind of referring to like clenching and grinding your teeth in agony.
That's kind of what that word means. So it's a very, very vivid and descriptive way for Jesus to talk about this, which he does talk about it frequently.
And so he describes deep agony, weeping, sadness, outer darkness. Not just darkness, but darkness outer, on the outside, away from him.
And then mark nine, if you want to flip to mark nine 43, I'm going to read a couple verses there.
So Mark 9:43 says, Jesus says, and if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off.
It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell to the unquenchable fire.
And then look at verse 48, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.
So how does he describe hell here?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Worms don't die. Like, you know, the worms that would, like, eat decomposing bodies. It doesn't die. The fire does not go out.
Such is the pain. He says, it would be better to amputate your own hand than to sin and be sent to hell.
So it's kind of. I don't know, maybe it's just me. It's kind of uncomfortable sometimes to read this, to think of how painful and atrocious the agony that goes on and on forever in hell. But I want to show us that in more places than we've read, but we've just read several.
The Bible talks about hell in these terms.
This we must understand.
We have to affirm it. It's here.
It's not mean unloving for us to believe these things. This is what our God has written for us.
So in summary, hell is eternal. Forever conscious, they are awake and it is torment.
The Bible is so clear on that.
This is a doctrine that past theologians did not just make up because they hate non Christians. This is what the Bible, our perfect gps, tells us. This is the way that things will go.
So remember our first application because it's serious.
It's the driving force behind the urgency of holiness and the urgency of missions.
We urgently need to be holy. We urgently need to do missions so that you can escape this punishment that you deserve, so that others can escape the punishment that they deserve through faith in Jesus christ.
So that's a beautiful thing that we can consider even in the middle here.
This is a very real doctrine. We're going to talk in a minute about different ways that people have tried to get around this belief.
But we need to remember, as bad as this is, the gospel is frustrating. Free to all who would believe in Christ.
That's what you need to do. You believe in him and love him. Surrender your life and you can escape this punishment that you deserve. And as well, all it takes for other people that are dying not knowing Christ to escape this is to also hear and believe in the gospel.
So before we write God off as someone who is mean and, and vindictive, we have a God who is merciful and kind that has given us his word with plenty of warnings about this and shown us the way to be redeemed from our sins.
We have a wonderfully loving God who bends over backwards with his mercy and love. And that is a wonderful thing.
But now let's talk about ways that people may be trying to get around this belief.
So the point number two, eternal punishment is incompatible with universalism. So universalism would be the first way that people want to get around the doctrine of hell.
But eternal punishment is incompatible with universalism. What is universalism?
Anyone know?
Yeah.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: Basically saying any religion can make you saved and go to heaven.
[00:19:15] Speaker B: Any religion, or even none at all. Nobody goes to hell and everyone is.
So a universalist would believe that there is a salvation or a heaven and everyone goes there. That's a universalist.
But you know, it would be puzzling if the Bible taught universalism but also contained so much content on hell and eternal punishment. Right.
It just seems at face value, completely incompatible with the Christian faith. But that's not even the only or even the main reason that we should reject universalism.
Romans 5:18. So we're going to look at the Bible, I believe, our perfect gps. The Bible tells us to reject universalism. That would be the main reason to reject it.
Romans 5:18. Flip there. This would be a passage that might be used to say the Bible teaches universalism. Look at Romans 5:18, which says, Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.
Why would someone say that this verse teaches universalism?
I'm not saying you believe this, but just put your mind in their head for a moment.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: Why?
[00:20:41] Speaker B: Why would someone say that teaches universalism?
Yeah, yeah, everybody. Did you hear that? Everybody is justified by Christ. That's what they would say. But does it teach that?
Well, obviously I'm going to say no, and I want you guys to say no.
No, it doesn't teach that. And there are a couple, I think, glaring, obvious reasons for this. One, if we're going to take it so literal that it's the all means every single person.
Well, it also says men and not women.
We don't believe that. That's ridiculous.
So. And as well, you know, there was a. There's a guy I know, his name is Bobby.
Some call him Wasabi Bobby.
Some of you guys know who he is from church camp or maybe other places. But he's a great dude. He's a member, I think now at Hillcrest Baptist Church in Stillwater, and he teaches a class. And I think he would say.
I think he would do this. He would say three words are really important. Kellen, do you know what the three words are?
They all start with C and they're the same word.
Context, context, context, context. Maybe he didn't say that. I could be wrong.
I'm sure he would say that, though. Oh, he's a great guy. What's the context say? Let's look at the verse prior, verse 17, which says, for if because of one man's trespass, so that the one man's trespass is talking about Adam's sin. So if because of one man's trespass, death reigned through the one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through, through the one man, Jesus christ.
So according to this prior context, you must quote, receive the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness.
This gift is for believers, not everyone.
One reason we make this mistake, which I kind of pointed out with the men thing, is that we assume the meaning of some words we'll read, and we're just going to, you know, and we do this naturally. It's not necessarily, necessarily evil intent. We assume, well, all means this, men means this. But we're maybe not interpreting them consistently.
So how rigidly literal are we with each word? Well, the context kind of helps us to know how we should take it.
And whether it's cultural or within the text, the context will help us.
You know, it might be said, all means all, and that's all that all means.
That's a phrase. In that phrase, the word all is used in different ways.
So all means more than just all. All can mean different things. All can have meanings. It can mean every single person exhaustively.
All can mean every kind of person.
All can even limit the number of people. I could say, I'm going to let four people into my house today, and that's all. So that's a limiting all. It's not an exhaustive all.
Have you heard the word all enough? Does it sound like a word still?
It doesn't sound like a word to me.
And in this case, and in the case of similar passages, you could write this one down. We don't have time for it. It's 1 Corinthians 15, 14, 22, 1st Corinthians 15, 14, 22, verse 22. If you read it by itself, some would say, hey, that looks like universalism.
But the immediately preceding context reveals to us that it's not being used in a universal sense. It's very narrowly being applied to the believers.
So we should reject universalism. It's incompatible with the Bible. What the Bible teaches about eternal punishment.
Point number three, Eternal punishment is incompatible with something called conditional immortality.
Conditional immortality.
Anyone need spelling help? Good.
You just sound it out, you'll be fine.
Now, can anyone guess what conditional immortality is?
You know, I don't think that one's used often in your everyday life, but you can guess.
You don't have to.
Anyone want to guess?
Yeah, it's a little bit hard. It is the belief that only God is intrinsically immortal, which is true, right? You're not intrinsically immortal. You will die. Only God will never die. But it also teaches that all people will just die, and that's it.
Unless God gives them eternal life so they can be given eternal life, but otherwise you just die. And that's It.
There's no eternal existence unless it's given specifically to you.
That's what they believe.
Based on what we've covered so far. Why is this view wrong?
Yeah, yeah, right. And we've seen that throughout, even in the punishment passages.
Our Bible perfect GPS is showing us that it's not that people just die and that's it. What would they be? Weeping, gnashing of teeth, Eternal everlasting punishment, Death, pain, suffering. Those words make no sense if someone just ceases existence.
So the Bible is just incompatible with this view.
We'd have to just ignore all of those passages of the Bible to believe that view. So we should reject conditional immortality. And then point number four, this is our last point. Eternal punishment is incompatible with annihilationism.
I'm going to spell that.
A N N I H I L A T I O N ism Annihilationism.
I'm just assuming some people might have a hard time spelling that.
But now, you know, annihilationism is probably, maybe the most common, probably even the strongest false view.
Does anyone know what it means or have a guess?
Yeah, like it's like people, everyone dies, you know, social.
They'll go to heaven and have eternal life and then people go to hell. Will essentially go to hell and like die in terms of death.
Yeah, that's. That's a really good explanation. Yeah. Unbelievers will be punished, but after a time will be annihilated into non existence.
That's what they believe.
They would say that the phrase eternal destruction in places like 2nd Thessalonians 1:9 means that they will be destroyed into oblivion and will cease to exist eternally.
Now, based on what we've covered so far, how might you address this? Anyone want to take a stab at it?
Everlasting, Everlasting, Everlasting. Yeah, well, they might say, yeah, but the destruction is everlasting. You know, they're not going to come back into existence.
That's probably why it's the strongest one that you can, like have a superficial answer.
Do you have more? Does anyone else?
[00:28:22] Speaker A: Wouldn't the weeping and gnashing of teeth be everlasting?
[00:28:25] Speaker B: I think so.
I think so. Unquenchable fire as well.
So I've been using a book to kind of decide what topics we've covered. So. Been a while since I've mentioned it, but it's a guy named Greg Allison who wrote that book.
He summarizes an answer to this, I think really well.
And so I'm just going to read his.
He says in response Destruction does not necessarily mean the ending of existence.
Rather, it can refer to the retributive, damning nature of the eternal punishment.
Also, Jesus drew the parallel between eternal life and eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46.
If the former eternal life is everlasting existence, then the latter must also be everlasting existence. Right? So if eternal life is forever, and Jesus is making the parallel, then eternal death must also be forever.
As for the imagery of fire, when Jesus used it to describe hell, he modified the word with unquenchable, indicating that in regard to hell, fire does not destroy, but will continually smoke.
So, and if any of you are more interested in this topic, John Piper in a book called Let the Nations Be Glad, which is a book about missions. But there's a long section about this where he's refuting another theologian named John Stott, who believed in annihilationism. And it's really helpful. But yeah, and if you want a copy of the book to borrow or something, just let me know.
Now, there's a couple errors we want to avoid based on this and based on all of these, really. So error number one, we must not dismiss eternal conscious torment. I don't think any of these alternatives do justice to what the Bible tells us. And if we're going to follow our perfect guide, the Bible, and the route that he has drawn up for us, then we need to understand and deal with the fact that punishment is eternal, it's conscious, and it is terrible.
Error number two, we must not gleefully anticipate the eternal punishment of the wicked.
We cannot gleefully anticipate the eternal punishment of the wicked. Now, sometimes we read psalms that are praying for God to do justice and punish the wicked. Right?
I think we can desire that the wicked would be destroyed because that is just. Just like when we. When there is a murderer, we want the justice system to convict him and punish him appropriately.
We can desire that the wicked would be destroyed.
Again, it's just. It glorifies God. But I think we must pray for that solemnly, humbly recognizing that we actually also deserve that sentence.
We do.
And it's only through the blood of Christ and faith in him that you can be saved from such a sentence.
And so I think we need to keep that in mind.
We don't cheer and clap our hands, and we don't want to be giddy that another sinner is going to hell.
We want instead to think, how can I proclaim the gospel to people so that that happens less, so that more people receive eternal life?
That should be our thought.
Are there any questions about this that you guys have before we end Again? As always, you can ask me questions anytime afterward or any other day that you'd like. I'd love to try to answer them.
For those of you that'll be here next week, have fun. We'll be at camp. Well, we will be somewhere in western Oklahoma or the Texas Panhandle at this time.
And then the week after, we'll finish with our last systematic theology lesson. All right, let's pray. Father, thank you for your word. Lord, help us to be humble and solemn in the face of the reality of hell, the eternal conscious torment of those who hate you. God, we thank you. If you have given us faith. And we pray that you would grant faith to those who do not believe. You would prick their heart today.
Reveal to them that they very much are deserving and heading towards this punishment. Give them faith that they would repent of their sins, believe in Christ for their everlasting life. Lord, transform their lives that they would be holy, that they would proclaim this same message to people that need to hear it.
Lord, help us to digest this in a way that honors you. We pray this in Christ's name. Amen.
